> - The officer in the training exercise that killed Officer Tipping has the same name as the officer in Tipping’s report, but they are not sure if it is the same person.
It appears you did not finish reading TFA. There was an investigation that confirmed the same officer was at the training:
"Gage could not confirm that the officer accused of rape was the officer directly engaged in the training exercise with Tipping. But he said 'our investigation indicates that yes, it was.' "
And frankly, if you don't think it's suspicious that an officer who investigated four LAPD officers raping a woman later getting killed in a freak bicycle training accident isn't suspicious, you may need to reset your baseline for what is "speculation and innuendo." What happened here was extremely suspicious. Even before considering that one of those officers charged was at the training.
(One may even wonder why a police officer accused of rape was not only still on duty, but even training other officers.)
First, my very point is that when you have only suspicion, you must be extra skeptical of speculation and innuendo, not less.
Second, it is against the HN guidelines to accuse others of not reading the article.
Because, third, I did read that your quoted paragraph. I took it to mean, they believe but are not sure. As in “[he] could not confirm…”
Sadly, I struggle with your other points as they as suffer the same issues as the article. E.g., again, this was not a bicycle training, have the officers been formally charged? was the accused officer the trainer or a participant?
If you just look at the facts quoted from the coroners report, without looking at the circumstances, it sure sounds like this person was beaten to death. It does not sound like a training accident.
You’ll notice that on HN it is pretty common to see people pop into the comments about anything police-related with “Well actually there is no empirical logical reason to disbelieve the notion that the police are the arbiters of truth. You sir are doing a fallacy of the most egregious degree! In fact you are violating the very covenant of the guidelines upon which this very website is founded by arguing in such a noxious manner! I know this because my herculean intellect tells me so, as I do not even have opinions but only the zen mastery of Truth Itself!”
I haven’t quite figured out why there are so many staunchly pro-police people on a site where a lot of posters seem to lean kind of libertarian, but it’s an interesting and kind of amusing phenomenon.
You don't think that a possible explanation for GP's post is principled disagreement that the article makes a good case, rather than necessarily ardent pro-cop bias?
I did not make any comment about the GP’s post in particular. I made a comment about a funny phenomenon of posting on HN in general. I specifically brought up posters using highfalutin’ fancy speech to cover an ardent pro-cop bias.
There are some posters that will use their perceived skill at language to do somersaults of logic in order to eventually land at “the police are the arbiters of truth” or something similar. The primary tactic is to use high school debate club language to put words in other people’s mouths in an attempt to discredit any view that doesn’t align with their premise of “the police are arbiters of truth.”
I don't see that phenomena about cop boot-lickers on HN in particular more than anywhere else, but I'm sure it happens here sometimes too.
I also didn't think it was a well-written article, though. The fellow's injuries do not seem accidental if the article reported them accurately, but the connection to the rape case was pretty tenuous. It could be that, or something else that got him killed, or the article just got some facts wrong. The article didn't really give me confidence.
The “bootlicking” isn’t more prominent here than say, Twitter or Facebook, that’s for sure. It’s the manner of it that I think is amusingly distinct for this site.
On other platforms people will outright say “I back our boys in blue! I have a Punisher themed gun tattooed on my pubic mound!” On HN, instead of directly supporting the police and their narratives, there are posters that will pop up with no opinion other than “You are wrong” about anything that’s counter to police narratives. Instead of arguing for a narrative, they argue against any contrary narratives, usually on silly parliamentary grounds. This way they can support the police without appearing to support the police. It’s a fun little parlor trick!
>it is pretty common to see people pop into the comments about anything police-related with “Well actually there is no empirical logical reason to disbelieve the notion that the police are the arbiters of truth.
It's not just for police, HN is overwhelmingly a very pro-empirical community, much like the population it represents. One of the biggest weaknesses empiricists have as a mass movement is that they are extremely easily manipulated, so long as you are able to control the flow of information (which the police usually do).
A positivist must, by his or her principles, serve to bolster support for any likely genocidal dictator, murderer, what have you, until the bodies are actually found.
It's because libertarians actually love the police and government when they're doing things that they like, like enforcing capitalism with violence, kidnapping and death.
Police officers are not held accountable commensurate to the incredible amount of power and influence they enjoy. They should be held to much much higher standards if they want to carry a monopoly on violence (including a loaded gun) wherever they stand.
I agree with the spirit of your comment, but I wonder how it could translate into practice. It seems like it would be quite the boon to organized crime if you could rid yourself of a meddlesome cop simply by way of accusation.
Where do you see anyone saying anything about punishing people based just on accusations? That's not something anyone in this thread is advocating for.
>>> One may even wonder why a police officer accused of rape was not only still on duty, but even training other officers.
>> Because accusations are cheap enough to be weaponizable as a denial-of-service attack.
> Police officers are not held accountable commensurate to the incredible amount of power and influence they enjoy. They should be held to much much higher standards
Surely the context of this exchange is whether a police officer who has been accused of a crime still should be on active duty? Also I didn’t say ”punish”, I said ”get rid of”, which is effectively what happens if a cop is taken off duty pending investigation and potential court case.
They don't carry a monopoly on violence though? In the US, at least, you have the right to defend yourself which can include killing or detaining a person inflicting harm on you or others. This is the same thing cops can do.
It's a fair point, but they do have a unique form of monopoly on violence. They can "legitimately" initiate violence.
Initiate the violence.
Don't pay your property taxes, and ignore summons, etc? Eventually someone will show up at your door to toss you out of your house. If you just sit on your couch and say "nuh huh" eventually they will violently throw you out. If you use self defense to stop the violence, they'll simply kill you or incapacitate you.
Grow a funny plant in the wrong state? Eventually, if they find out, men with guns will bust into your house. They won't be 'self-defending' you into your custody, they will be initiating the violence against you to take you.
While self defense is 'violence' I think a lot of us just almost "don't count it." Self defense is more like stopping the violence, IMO.
Self defense can include stopping somebody from taking your property (maybe not every state?) This is comparable to not paying taxes. The taxes are legitimately owed to the government and so you have "stolen" from the government. Similar to stealing from an individual (in a sense).
You may not be a fan of killing over stolen property, but depending on the situation and state it is completely allowed. I think some states even allow you to kill a person who stole something from you while they are running away.
This means the initiation of physical violence can be initiated by you as well and be considered just.
Laws regarding weed are more nuanced, but it doesn't change that individuals can under certain circumstances initiate physical violence towards somebody legitimately.
I concede you're right. It's not a complete monopoly. My state would allow a citizen's arrest for felony theft, for instance. Generally killing someone over property is illegal, absent some unique circumstances (like breaking into an occupied structure).
I'm not aware of any state that allows you to use violence to collect on a contract, however. IF you see taxes as satisfaction of the social contract or whatever. It's hard for me to argue failure to pay taxes as theft; I'd call it more of failure to pay for an involuntary contract. IMO it would be much more appropriately be classified as a civil offense than a criminal one.
Maybe? The victim was reaching towards his back which complicates the situation. The police officer had already told him to not do that. This is almost certainly a twitchy cop who gave confusing commands like keep your hands up and also crawl and he probably should lose his job, but it isn't as easy as you seem to be conveying.
If you are civilian and are detaining a person for a just cause like they were trying to kill you or something (Daniel had been pointing a gun out of a window so it is reasonable to think he may try to kill somebody) and the person reached to his back like that you might not be convicted if you shoot them.
It seems to me like you are making the assumption that a civilian would be convicted. Do you have any examples for the same situation?
It's not at all surprising that a rapid sequence of confusing commands that was loudly yelled at him at a gunpoint, interspersed with threats, wasn't precisely followed - not to mention that "crawl towards me" and "keep your hands in the air at all times" are literally contradictory. I don't think I'd do better in his shoes - and you can look at the comments on that video and see for yourself just how many people have the same sentiment. Which is to say, a reasonable person should not be expected to be able to carry out such instructions precisely in this situation.
Oh, and cops are civilians, too. They just like to pretend otherwise, with that whole "sheepdog" insanity. And, unfortunately, in US, we've normalized this. But anyway, a non-cop would be convicted of assault already at the point they aimed a rifle at another person and told them to crawl. That aside, if by some miracle a similar situation did emerge, I can't see how the shooter wouldn't be convicted, since the usual standard for self-defense by lethal means is "imminent threat of death or significant bodily harm", which is eminently not the case in the video. The fact that the cop customized his AR-15 with an engraved dust cover that said "you're fucked" is a cherry on top that does give you a hint regarding the general state of mind of that cop.
FWIW I carry myself and know many other people who do, and they were all universally appalled at this case, even more than your average person.
I agree with much of what you said. I probably didn't convey my points clearly.
The victim clearly wasn't in a good position to shoot the cop even if he grabbed a gun. The cop would likely have had time to shoot, if necessary, if Daniel had pulled a gun. (Assuming the camera is the same perspective as his head).
There obviously wasn't an actual threat in this case but there was a perceived threat. The cop was there because Daniel was being reckless with a gun. I think that is the key reason why I am not sure there should be a conviction. Being reckless with a gun then reaching for your waist band / back when being told not to is clearly not a good thing to do.
I do think the cop is at fault for not giving clear directions, for contradicting his directions, etc. I'm not trying to victim blame or anything like that. I am saying I am not sure what the average person would do. You know he has a gun and he reached for the waist band. I think the average person would quite possibly shoot. I don't think the average person should be a cop just like I don't think this guy should be a cop.
Legally it depends on the jurisdiction. In my view everybody has the right though.
Just to be clear you have the right to protect yourself or others from unjust violence not all violence. If you are about to murder somebody, another person does not have the right to stop a good Samaritan trying to stop the murder.
It appears you did not finish reading TFA. There was an investigation that confirmed the same officer was at the training:
"Gage could not confirm that the officer accused of rape was the officer directly engaged in the training exercise with Tipping. But he said 'our investigation indicates that yes, it was.' "
And frankly, if you don't think it's suspicious that an officer who investigated four LAPD officers raping a woman later getting killed in a freak bicycle training accident isn't suspicious, you may need to reset your baseline for what is "speculation and innuendo." What happened here was extremely suspicious. Even before considering that one of those officers charged was at the training.
(One may even wonder why a police officer accused of rape was not only still on duty, but even training other officers.)